Tao Lin
Sara Mumolo: The poems in MARY come from your new book Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy. Do you see this book as a conversation with your previous collection you are a little bit happier than i am?
Tao Lin: The first poetry book is like a really alienated two-uline-old doing things with itself without parental supervision, something like rubbing its crotch against an Oreo cookie or something. When that two-uline-old is a twenty-uline-old it won’t refer to its two-uline-old self in any way, because if you see a two-uline-old rubbing an Oreo cookie against its crotch you know it’s just a two-year-old rubbing an Oreo cookie against its crotch, it doesn't mean anything. When I work on a book I “finish it” and then “finish it” again and then later on even if I know I have thought many times before that the book is “finished” I tell myself to work on it every day for two or three weeks or something. Sometime in all that there is a period of a few days where I do not doubt myself that the book is “finished.” After that happens if I want to change the book I instead focus on another book, thinking that the book was “finished” for a period of a few days so then it must have been “finished” to my “old self” of a few weeks ago, so it is “finished” in that way. No, I don’t see the new book as a response or a conversation to the first book.
SM: In between Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and you are a little bit happier than i am, you published a novel, Eeeee Eee Eeee, and a story-collection, Bed. Does your writing process differ when creating fiction versus poetry; do they influence each other?
TL: When I read “writing process” my brain doesn’t tell me anything. I work in a restaurant and when I’m there I have a process, like I put the pesto on the bread, the tofu on the bread, then the lettuce, because I have a goal, and every tofu sandwich will look the same if I succeed. In writing I have no concrete goal, so it’s different each time. Or I do have a goal but it is abstract, and therefore changes all the time depending on context and my philosophy of life. For the tofu sandwich, context does not matter, if I am by the phone or by the stove, I will put the pesto on the bread first. In terms of fiction versus poetry, I think if a certain amount of “poetry neurons” “fire” I will write poetry instead of fiction. To explain this would simplify it, I would feel like an ass. I also feel like an ass talking about poetry neurons.
SM: Do you have a favorite poem or poems in your new book?
TL: I think the first fifteen pages or something feel nice and calm to me and then some things happen that make it seem almost disgusting to me or unseemly or something. The first fifteen pages feel like a pint of organic coconut water to me while the rest of it feels like organic coconut water with some Pepsi or something in it. I felt that if I could sustain the first fifteen pages I would accomplish something but maybe I just have ideas not based on reality in my head right now because I worked on the book a long time and I know that for a period of a few days or something (what I talked about in the last question) I looked at it every day and liked all of it and what I did with it. To me “A Green Light” by Matthew Rohrer is like a pint of organic coconut water. I drank coconut water earlier tonight.
SM: You are a part of the online journal Bear Parade. Are you able to describe what Bear Parade publishes and what role you have?
TL: I don’t want to describe what Bear Parade publishes. How can a person describe a sentence with other sentences? That is like standing in front of a tree with another human, and instead of looking at the tree you tell the human to describe the tree using other trees’ branches and leaves and trunks. Like, “Can you take different parts of different trees and use them to describe this tree for me?” Yes, it can be done, but it would be like a joke. My role is sometimes I send Gene Morgan links to authors that I like and he reads it. Or he does it to me. Then I or him or usually we both email that author. Or Gene likes something or I like something and we send things to each other and we say, “I like it,” or, “I like it, do you want to publish it?” Other people are also involved. I usually send the mass emails. Gene Morgan designs everything, so that is one set role I think. And he is the “founder.” There is also an intern who checks for spelling errors. I think everyone really just wants to have the things we want to read on a web site so we can go there and read it when we want to.
SM: What your favorite theme in your illustrations?
TL: A head with a tear on it and large eyes but the mouth is smiling.
SM: Will you consider including your illustrations in your books?
TL: Maybe, if it is a comic or something. For now I don’t think I would for poetry or a novel or stories. The Press Gang (http://the-press-gang.blogspot.com) is publishing a book of my art in 2008.
SM: I read on your blog that you draw pictures inside books for fans. Can they buy books from you directly?
TL: Yes. People can buy my books by sending me money with Paypal or by mail.
SM: How many hits do you get on your blog?
TL: Average 400 unique visitors a day.
SM: What poets do you like to read?
TL: Matthew Rohrer, Michael Earl Craig, Ben Lerner. If anyone wants to know what else I like … go to my blog and you will see names. People without books, I like Brandon Scott Gorrell, Ellen Kennedy, people I’ve published on 3 a.m. Magazine (I edit and post poems there), anyone published on Bear Parade.
SM: You tour around reading your poetry. Does visiting other areas of the country and meeting the people who read your books affect you and/or your writing?
TL: I think I get more alienated, which affects me. Sometimes I’m okay, something happens, which also affects me. Anything affects me. I don’t know how. Yes, I think I’ve gotten more alienated. I have learned that I’m unable to answer most interview questions or respond to most sentences that get said, like I am a human being but there is something wrong, I don’t comprehend most questions or sentences especially if they are arguments or “discussions.” Sometimes a person will tell me that I “look scared” or they will sarcastically tell me that I “sound really enthusiastic” or they will tell me to smile. All these things alienate me more. It also alienates me when people interpret my writing as “cries for help.” No, I don’t want people to feel sorry for me, I don’t want people to help me, I would like for someone to pet me or something but in a non-pitying way.
SM: Have you ever been scared of your audience?
TL: Yes, I almost always feel afraid. Sometimes I can choose to not feel afraid. During those times I think things like, “People in the audience will laugh and tell me they like my writing but I am completely alienated from them, their thoughts, their lives, and their experience of my writing. Their experience of life, my writing, and other people’s writings is completely different than mine. Therefore we will never be friends, I will just read this in a monotone and feel very emotional and alone, after the reading I will go to the library and feel alienated and type some more sentences.”
SM: Do you have a “type” of reader?
TL: No. I feel alienated from many of the people who like my writing. Probably the same percentage as I feel alienated from normal people. Or never mind, the percentage is probably a lot lower, that I feel alienated from, that like my writing. I express emotions like anger, frustration, and feeling bad in my writing and everyone can relate to that. Even people who enjoy Danielle Steele or Korn can relate to my writing when I write something like, “i am existentially fucked.” People who dislike my writing, I think, are people who are able to detect irony and sarcasm but who are either not able to process it or who do not like it. Some people are unable to detect irony or sarcasm, those people still can like my writing. Without irony or sarcasm my writing is like a melodramatic romance novel or a Hollywood movie I think, or some parts are.
SM: “i am existentially fucked” has been adopted by some of your readers. It’s repeated numerous times in you are a little bit happier than i am. The repetition flirts with vacancy. The line could arguably be called a catch phrase for the “literary hipster,” or the “blog-poet.” How do you feel about the adoption of the line? Was the intent of repetition to produce a motto or slogan?
TL: I intended to express myself or maybe relieve boredom without making myself feel more alienated and without feeling more uncomfortable, bored, or depressed but preferably more excited, more detached, and some other things. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable if people say they are existentially fucked. If you are existentially fucked that is all right.
SM: Any thoughts about Flarf poetry or G-chatting?
TL: I don’t think about things like that. I think about what food I will eat tonight, I think about where I will buy my food and how much money I will tip, I think about optimizing music, coffee and comfort in order to be able to answer many emails quickly. I think about my facial expression. Those are the things I think about. Sometimes I will let my brain think about something for awhile, I will consider things like whether or not it reduces pain and suffering in the world if I steal a certain thing from Whole Foods, if I make a certain obligation or something. Maybe I used to think about things like the ramifications of Flarf poetry in the age of g-chatting and postmodernism in conjunction with the rise of poetry blogs in a neo-anarcho society information superhighway gender issues re: political poetry Nicaragua. But now I think about food, pain and suffering, and strategies for answering a lot of unanswered emails in less than one hour, and what I am going to do tonight or how long I am going to sleep, etc.
SM: In a blog entry for Reader of Depressing Books, you discuss book contests and cash prizes, mentioning that you would probably give it to one of your “friends.” Do you believe poetry prizes are ethical, or have positive momentum in book publishing?
TL: Yes, if your morality is based on pain and suffering it is better, if your goal is to reduce pain and suffering, if you know where your money will go. Giving money to friends is more moral than giving money to people who aren’t your friends, if only because you know better where your friends will spend that money. Morals exist in concrete reality, not in “art.” It doesn’t matter what happens in a work of fiction, a word cannot feel pain, a “character” cannot feel pain. If I give $10,000 to James Frey he will spend the money, and I don’t know where he will spend the money, because I don’t know James Frey. If I give $10,000 to someone I know, I will know better where they will spend the money. If they spend the money on organic vegan food from an independent company that bases its existence on how much pain and suffering it is causing in the universe then that will reduce pain and suffering in the universe. Yes, it is more moral to give to your “friends.” I base this not on “friendship,” but on what I just described. On my blog I was also talking about how it will be very unlikely that I will not be “friends” or have some sort of connection, if only through a few emails, with someone I would give a prize to (in a situation where I don’t think at all about “morals”) for writing things that I like, because if I read something that I like I will try to contact that person and do things with them and therefore probably any journalist or blogger would be able to call us “friends” or at least “acquaintances.”
SM: Do you believe these literary contests possess a morality since most attempt to at least appear ethical in their procedures?
TL: Poetry is inside of the universe. To me it is a means, not an ends, just like exercising or smiling at someone is a means and not an ends. People use poetry to get what they want, everyone wants different things. Is it wrong to give $5000 to someone for writing poetry? Is it wrong for someone to write a poem only to win $5000? Most people probably think it’s wrong because then the poem is written for money and not for something else. I don’t think it’s wrong. I don’t think it’s right. I don’t even understand whether or not it is wrong to award money for poetry. It causes pain and suffering if you torture something that can feel pain and suffering with Chinese water torture or if you create systems, or contribute to creating or sustaining systems, where those things will be tortured by Chinese water torture or equivalents to it. Someone disapproved once of Tao Lin because I said on my blog that I wanted Bookscan, a service that lets you see how many books you have sold. They said only big corporations use Bookscan. I don’t understand that. Big corporations also use air, is it wrong to breathe air? But many people think in this way, by magic and abstract connections. Some people hate corporations and then in their head somehow clouds or a certain font or way of behaving gets associated with corporations, for no concrete reason, and then they also hate clouds or the color yellow or something. Therefore, I don’t know, it depends.
Tao Lin: The first poetry book is like a really alienated two-uline-old doing things with itself without parental supervision, something like rubbing its crotch against an Oreo cookie or something. When that two-uline-old is a twenty-uline-old it won’t refer to its two-uline-old self in any way, because if you see a two-uline-old rubbing an Oreo cookie against its crotch you know it’s just a two-year-old rubbing an Oreo cookie against its crotch, it doesn't mean anything. When I work on a book I “finish it” and then “finish it” again and then later on even if I know I have thought many times before that the book is “finished” I tell myself to work on it every day for two or three weeks or something. Sometime in all that there is a period of a few days where I do not doubt myself that the book is “finished.” After that happens if I want to change the book I instead focus on another book, thinking that the book was “finished” for a period of a few days so then it must have been “finished” to my “old self” of a few weeks ago, so it is “finished” in that way. No, I don’t see the new book as a response or a conversation to the first book.
SM: In between Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and you are a little bit happier than i am, you published a novel, Eeeee Eee Eeee, and a story-collection, Bed. Does your writing process differ when creating fiction versus poetry; do they influence each other?
TL: When I read “writing process” my brain doesn’t tell me anything. I work in a restaurant and when I’m there I have a process, like I put the pesto on the bread, the tofu on the bread, then the lettuce, because I have a goal, and every tofu sandwich will look the same if I succeed. In writing I have no concrete goal, so it’s different each time. Or I do have a goal but it is abstract, and therefore changes all the time depending on context and my philosophy of life. For the tofu sandwich, context does not matter, if I am by the phone or by the stove, I will put the pesto on the bread first. In terms of fiction versus poetry, I think if a certain amount of “poetry neurons” “fire” I will write poetry instead of fiction. To explain this would simplify it, I would feel like an ass. I also feel like an ass talking about poetry neurons.
SM: Do you have a favorite poem or poems in your new book?
TL: I think the first fifteen pages or something feel nice and calm to me and then some things happen that make it seem almost disgusting to me or unseemly or something. The first fifteen pages feel like a pint of organic coconut water to me while the rest of it feels like organic coconut water with some Pepsi or something in it. I felt that if I could sustain the first fifteen pages I would accomplish something but maybe I just have ideas not based on reality in my head right now because I worked on the book a long time and I know that for a period of a few days or something (what I talked about in the last question) I looked at it every day and liked all of it and what I did with it. To me “A Green Light” by Matthew Rohrer is like a pint of organic coconut water. I drank coconut water earlier tonight.
SM: You are a part of the online journal Bear Parade. Are you able to describe what Bear Parade publishes and what role you have?
TL: I don’t want to describe what Bear Parade publishes. How can a person describe a sentence with other sentences? That is like standing in front of a tree with another human, and instead of looking at the tree you tell the human to describe the tree using other trees’ branches and leaves and trunks. Like, “Can you take different parts of different trees and use them to describe this tree for me?” Yes, it can be done, but it would be like a joke. My role is sometimes I send Gene Morgan links to authors that I like and he reads it. Or he does it to me. Then I or him or usually we both email that author. Or Gene likes something or I like something and we send things to each other and we say, “I like it,” or, “I like it, do you want to publish it?” Other people are also involved. I usually send the mass emails. Gene Morgan designs everything, so that is one set role I think. And he is the “founder.” There is also an intern who checks for spelling errors. I think everyone really just wants to have the things we want to read on a web site so we can go there and read it when we want to.
SM: What your favorite theme in your illustrations?
TL: A head with a tear on it and large eyes but the mouth is smiling.
SM: Will you consider including your illustrations in your books?
TL: Maybe, if it is a comic or something. For now I don’t think I would for poetry or a novel or stories. The Press Gang (http://the-press-gang.blogspot.com) is publishing a book of my art in 2008.
SM: I read on your blog that you draw pictures inside books for fans. Can they buy books from you directly?
TL: Yes. People can buy my books by sending me money with Paypal or by mail.
SM: How many hits do you get on your blog?
TL: Average 400 unique visitors a day.
SM: What poets do you like to read?
TL: Matthew Rohrer, Michael Earl Craig, Ben Lerner. If anyone wants to know what else I like … go to my blog and you will see names. People without books, I like Brandon Scott Gorrell, Ellen Kennedy, people I’ve published on 3 a.m. Magazine (I edit and post poems there), anyone published on Bear Parade.
SM: You tour around reading your poetry. Does visiting other areas of the country and meeting the people who read your books affect you and/or your writing?
TL: I think I get more alienated, which affects me. Sometimes I’m okay, something happens, which also affects me. Anything affects me. I don’t know how. Yes, I think I’ve gotten more alienated. I have learned that I’m unable to answer most interview questions or respond to most sentences that get said, like I am a human being but there is something wrong, I don’t comprehend most questions or sentences especially if they are arguments or “discussions.” Sometimes a person will tell me that I “look scared” or they will sarcastically tell me that I “sound really enthusiastic” or they will tell me to smile. All these things alienate me more. It also alienates me when people interpret my writing as “cries for help.” No, I don’t want people to feel sorry for me, I don’t want people to help me, I would like for someone to pet me or something but in a non-pitying way.
SM: Have you ever been scared of your audience?
TL: Yes, I almost always feel afraid. Sometimes I can choose to not feel afraid. During those times I think things like, “People in the audience will laugh and tell me they like my writing but I am completely alienated from them, their thoughts, their lives, and their experience of my writing. Their experience of life, my writing, and other people’s writings is completely different than mine. Therefore we will never be friends, I will just read this in a monotone and feel very emotional and alone, after the reading I will go to the library and feel alienated and type some more sentences.”
SM: Do you have a “type” of reader?
TL: No. I feel alienated from many of the people who like my writing. Probably the same percentage as I feel alienated from normal people. Or never mind, the percentage is probably a lot lower, that I feel alienated from, that like my writing. I express emotions like anger, frustration, and feeling bad in my writing and everyone can relate to that. Even people who enjoy Danielle Steele or Korn can relate to my writing when I write something like, “i am existentially fucked.” People who dislike my writing, I think, are people who are able to detect irony and sarcasm but who are either not able to process it or who do not like it. Some people are unable to detect irony or sarcasm, those people still can like my writing. Without irony or sarcasm my writing is like a melodramatic romance novel or a Hollywood movie I think, or some parts are.
SM: “i am existentially fucked” has been adopted by some of your readers. It’s repeated numerous times in you are a little bit happier than i am. The repetition flirts with vacancy. The line could arguably be called a catch phrase for the “literary hipster,” or the “blog-poet.” How do you feel about the adoption of the line? Was the intent of repetition to produce a motto or slogan?
TL: I intended to express myself or maybe relieve boredom without making myself feel more alienated and without feeling more uncomfortable, bored, or depressed but preferably more excited, more detached, and some other things. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable if people say they are existentially fucked. If you are existentially fucked that is all right.
SM: Any thoughts about Flarf poetry or G-chatting?
TL: I don’t think about things like that. I think about what food I will eat tonight, I think about where I will buy my food and how much money I will tip, I think about optimizing music, coffee and comfort in order to be able to answer many emails quickly. I think about my facial expression. Those are the things I think about. Sometimes I will let my brain think about something for awhile, I will consider things like whether or not it reduces pain and suffering in the world if I steal a certain thing from Whole Foods, if I make a certain obligation or something. Maybe I used to think about things like the ramifications of Flarf poetry in the age of g-chatting and postmodernism in conjunction with the rise of poetry blogs in a neo-anarcho society information superhighway gender issues re: political poetry Nicaragua. But now I think about food, pain and suffering, and strategies for answering a lot of unanswered emails in less than one hour, and what I am going to do tonight or how long I am going to sleep, etc.
SM: In a blog entry for Reader of Depressing Books, you discuss book contests and cash prizes, mentioning that you would probably give it to one of your “friends.” Do you believe poetry prizes are ethical, or have positive momentum in book publishing?
TL: Yes, if your morality is based on pain and suffering it is better, if your goal is to reduce pain and suffering, if you know where your money will go. Giving money to friends is more moral than giving money to people who aren’t your friends, if only because you know better where your friends will spend that money. Morals exist in concrete reality, not in “art.” It doesn’t matter what happens in a work of fiction, a word cannot feel pain, a “character” cannot feel pain. If I give $10,000 to James Frey he will spend the money, and I don’t know where he will spend the money, because I don’t know James Frey. If I give $10,000 to someone I know, I will know better where they will spend the money. If they spend the money on organic vegan food from an independent company that bases its existence on how much pain and suffering it is causing in the universe then that will reduce pain and suffering in the universe. Yes, it is more moral to give to your “friends.” I base this not on “friendship,” but on what I just described. On my blog I was also talking about how it will be very unlikely that I will not be “friends” or have some sort of connection, if only through a few emails, with someone I would give a prize to (in a situation where I don’t think at all about “morals”) for writing things that I like, because if I read something that I like I will try to contact that person and do things with them and therefore probably any journalist or blogger would be able to call us “friends” or at least “acquaintances.”
SM: Do you believe these literary contests possess a morality since most attempt to at least appear ethical in their procedures?
TL: Poetry is inside of the universe. To me it is a means, not an ends, just like exercising or smiling at someone is a means and not an ends. People use poetry to get what they want, everyone wants different things. Is it wrong to give $5000 to someone for writing poetry? Is it wrong for someone to write a poem only to win $5000? Most people probably think it’s wrong because then the poem is written for money and not for something else. I don’t think it’s wrong. I don’t think it’s right. I don’t even understand whether or not it is wrong to award money for poetry. It causes pain and suffering if you torture something that can feel pain and suffering with Chinese water torture or if you create systems, or contribute to creating or sustaining systems, where those things will be tortured by Chinese water torture or equivalents to it. Someone disapproved once of Tao Lin because I said on my blog that I wanted Bookscan, a service that lets you see how many books you have sold. They said only big corporations use Bookscan. I don’t understand that. Big corporations also use air, is it wrong to breathe air? But many people think in this way, by magic and abstract connections. Some people hate corporations and then in their head somehow clouds or a certain font or way of behaving gets associated with corporations, for no concrete reason, and then they also hate clouds or the color yellow or something. Therefore, I don’t know, it depends.
